On Logic, Faith and Women’s Bodies

There’s something extremely funny in seeing a person defend what is probably a faith-based action as something with a “scientific basis” to it. Obviously enough, it’s not the previous generation that does it. My grandmother will insist on having a kolam because she likes it that way. Nothing else to it. But someone of my generation will probably insist that it was a “scientific thing” to do as it kept the ants of the house or helped feed the ants or something.

There’s an interesting topic on in the blogworld right now. Some posts on the issue. To sum it up, there’s obviously a lot of annoyance expressed when women are expected to isolate themselves or not touch half the objects in the world become they have their period. Coming from a relatively liberal family, I wasn’t brought up with these traditions. (And yes, I am delighted that I wasn’t.) But that still doesn’t mean you don’t have to come terms with it. In temples, in the houses of friends, random strangers will ask you if you are having your period, and how it makes a ten feet radius around you impure, and hence ask you to vanish. All the posts I linked to make a lot of sense, but some of the comments on the posts really annoyed me.

Those that want to practice something in the confines of their homes are welcome to. I do think that heaping such a tradition on a child is abusive. If a grown woman feels like being in a bubble, so be it. But let me come to my fundamental annoyance. It’s when people offer ridiculously absurd pieces of wisdom like “It was devised to help women get a little rest”, or “It had a scientific purpose – women didn’t have access to sanitary products and it was very unhygienic” and that their current practice of said tradition has a scientific reason for it.

I am sure ancient wisdom had contemporary interests in mind, but when you do have reasonably strong antibacterial soaps out in the market, that bit about hygiene feels like an eyewash. In sum, I understand that there might have been some logic to doing something a certain way 500 years back. But circumstances change. So the “same logic” doesn’t make sense.

So if you want to do it the old-fashioned way, don’t attempt to use that “logic”. Say it is your faith or your religion that compels you to do it that way. And be done with it. You have a right to practice whatever you want to – however arcane and pointless. But for the sheer sake of a good argument, don’t mix faith and logic. Make no mistake, religion and logic needn’t be dichotomous. It’s possible to immerse oneself in both. But to use one as an excuse for the other makes for some very muddled reasoning.

As a parting shot – logic is sometimes used to hide more dark objectives. Like wanting to control women. Like ensuring they never really get to join the workforce. (Especially in certain castes or classes – where the men have more to lose than gain if women go to work.). So just because something sounds all clever and kind, let’s not forget that it’s probably patronizing too.

Advertisements
This entry was posted in Random Links. Bookmark the permalink.

76 Responses to On Logic, Faith and Women’s Bodies

  1. thanks for linking to my post neha. I agree with you and you’ve put it much better than me, trampling on a fewer toes than i did! i did mention this though.. that tell me its a religious belief and i wont argue it. try and justify it as science and i will argue back… .

    Like

  2. you might find this an interesting one to link to, even though it was done long ago.. http://tamilpunkster.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html

    Like

  3. Lekhni says:

    The trend these days seems to be to take old superstitions and repackage them as having some kind of scientific basis. Trouble is, though the pseudo-scientific argument made is invariably wrong, people still believe it.

    For instance, I am not sure why women did not have access to sanitary products in the old ages. Do people know that cloth pads are actually making a comeback in the West? There are lots of sites like this one. Cloth pads were never unsanitary, just very inconvenient. So I don’t see why that should be a reason for the superstition surrounding periods.

    Besides, how is one bodily fluid worse than another? Would temples restrict entry to someone who has a cut on a finger, for instance?

    Like

  4. Indoczar says:

    There was once an article (don’t remember where I read it – this was way back in the second half of 90s) about how an ad whiz used to mark the days in the calendar. He relied on the calendar entirely to assign projects to the women in his team. His logic was that, by ensuring that key project milestones do not coincide with the time-of-the-month of his lady staff, the deliverables would not suffer. The article also featured interviews with the women within and without his team who were quite supportive of this management technique.

    It worked for the maverick ad man (it is not Alyque P) – he was able to add to his cultivated persona.

    But to get back to your article, you have been no different from many of those who attempt to justify the practice with “logic”. Your attempt to justify their behavior with your version of logic – ‘dark objectives’, ‘control women’ and employment opportunities – are far fetched.

    My take is many people attempt to justify faith because they are asked to. It takes maturity to treat faith as it is. Just as atheistic rationalist questions religious faith, there are several who question conventional practices borne out of faith. And as long as there are questions, there will be people who try to address them with logic, however feeble they may be. But to classify it as a suppression of women smacks of bra burners’ prejudice.

    Like

  5. Pingback: Scientific Logic and Faith | DesiPundit

  6. thoughtroom says:

    Hi

    I just noticed the link. Thankyou

    Like

  7. Vi says:

    Really, your post has amazing timing. I just moved back home from college a week or so ago for summer holidays and I’ve been wondering how I’d treat this situation. My traditional, orthodox parents are rigorous followers of this code of conduct – and I’ve already been given advanced notification that it was my ‘duty’ to tell them when I am “out of the house”.

    I’m still debating on whether I will or not – because, in all honesty, I don’t think its any of their business.

    Needless to say, I completely agree with your sentiment. Well-written.

    Like

  8. Nilu says:

    Indoczar,
    You wear bra va? Send photos.

    Like

  9. mokkai says:

    that bit about wanting to control women and all sounds like general paranoia. Nice Post.

    Like

  10. chandni says:

    great post neha.

    Thanks for the link up.

    Again, looking at the general trend of comments…people seem to think that it is far fetched to link this issue with subjugation of women.

    Its easy especially one can attenpt to give logic to “older” times and the non availability of proper painkillers of sanitary towels. i don’t believe it, but I can still understand.

    But how can anyone explain things like the belief that pickels go bad if u touch them? Snakes die if they come in contact with a used pad? Its blind superstition which never works on logic.

    How many such superstitions do we know of, that go in favour of making men sit at home? Which make it official for them to stay isolated?

    Are there any?? I don’t know of a single one…but even if someone gives me an example, one should weigh it against the number of things that women are supposed to, and everyone will get their answer.

    Like

  11. Suchi says:

    I find it quite a disturbing trend. It’s a bit like the beauty contests claiming that they choose the winner based on beauty and intelligence. Yeah, right.

    I think the tendency to assign a scientific basis comes from insecurity. Somewhere in their head, these people know that it’s all pure bunkum and they’re terrified that someone might actually call it out.

    Like

  12. rupa says:

    Awesome post….
    Agree to the T….logic…my foot….

    Like

  13. rupa says:

    My first time here…will be visiting again…

    Like

  14. Nikhil says:

    I disagree. It is very scientific to say that the body of a lady is weaker than a man’s. And that she becomes even more weak during that time of the month. So ladies definitely need a rest. Why complain ladies! Just enjoy!

    Like

  15. raj says:

    woman are impure when they have periods. i own a travel agency, and we never allow the woman employees to take care of the ticketing needs. see so many people are going for teerth yaatra, or for imp journeys. if a woman with periods does their ticket, it could be very unlucky for them. even my wife agrees. i have seen myself pickles going bad when impure woman has touched. women are not bad, but they need to be careful to not give others bad luck. some precautions must be taken. you are wrong.

    Like

  16. hawkeye says:

    /* Make no mistake, religion and logic needn’t be dichotomous. It’s possible to immerse oneself in both */

    While this is the core of your post, nobody will understand this. They will use all the cliched arguments to agree with you but won’t get it. People on both sides of the fence will skim this.

    Like

  17. Alankrita says:

    Of course it is about control. And the Logic, as I read somewhere is such blank bull crap. Women who need to be treated special in “their time of the month” probably are poor souls who do not get any “human” treatment at any other time.
    Pads, Tampons, antibacterials- yes they are there and celebrating the inner goddess can certainly be done in a way other than a customary behavior like an outcast.

    Like

  18. Nilu says:

    Hawkeye, why is that the core? Because you decided it to be a?

    Like

  19. Imp's Mom says:

    Hi Neha,

    Just noticed the link. Thanks. Am linking up to your post too.

    And very well said.

    Like

  20. sonia says:

    dearerst darling raj,

    i promised i would’nt be mean, but hahahahhaa, my belly aches after reading your post. ur wife probably agree because there’s no point arguing with a mad person. what is the name of ur travel agency? you ain’t getting any clients from here!

    i really like this sentence -“women are not bad, but they need to be careful to not give others bad luck.”

    Run raj run, this blog is full of women, and pssst, some of them might also be MENSTRUATING!! Run before we pass on the bad luck on to you! One more tip: check the expiry dates on your pickles.

    Like

  21. the mad momma: I think that pretty much sums it up. There’s no way I can argue with faith. Especially if it has no affect on me. But the minute someone’s faith implies they feel free to treat me in an unpleasant manner, I will question it. But the excuse of logic and science is easily argued with. I remember reading Megha’s post. Thank god for her!

    Lekhni: Yep! I could never get that. Women cut themselves in the kitchen while cutting vegetables, and somehow that doesn’t result in God’s wrath. But enter it with your period, and somehow the cosmic balance is gravely disturbed!

    Indoczar: It’s hilarious how any discussion about gender brings in some arbitrary and random comment about bra-burning. You really think there’s absolutely no link between imposing isolation and attempting to control women? As for the ad-maker, I don’t think his team would have the guts to tell him that he was off his mind. I have never heard of women not being able to function as normal, intellectual beings just because they have their period.

    thoughtroom: Thanks..

    Vi: This bit always has me so confused. In my head I think it’s an unfair way of discriminating against someone. But it’s hard to argue with family … I stick to not telling anyone and going about my routine. Maybe if the pickle goes bad, I’ll confess!

    Nilu: Idu enne?

    mokkai: I don’t think it’s paranoia. I think it’s an obvious conclusion.

    chandni: I agree. I think the connection between isolation and oppression is bloody (oh the pun again!) obvious. Pure/ Impure, Mother/ Whore. As a woman you’re either the embodiment of all virtue, or all vice. And if that isn’t a way to control women, I don’t know what is.

    Suchi: I SO agree!! Why can’t beauty pageants just say it’s about beauty. And has nothing to do with the intellect at all. Why that farce of judging the answers and what rot. No one is denying that these women’s intelligence, but why pretend that a beauty contest is anything but.

    rupa: Foot is right!

    Nikhil: I’d like to ask you to compare yourself to an average woman from the Scandanavian countries. Chances are that she can pick you up with one hand and toss you about. Besides, since when is physical strength indicative of anything? By that measure, elephants should be ruling the planet. And why exactly do women need an excuse to rest. Can’t they rest whenever they want to.. ??

    raj: Are you for real?

    hawkeye: Yep. I don’t particularly see a dichotomy between the two. But when both are used in an argument, it’s hard to say which is the one that the other person actually believes.

    Alankrita: Why do so many people resist the interpretation of it being a way to control women? Fear of being outed? 🙂

    Imp’s mom: Thanks.

    sonia: ROTFL! That was hilarious. The sheer imagery!! Maybe for the benefit of people like raj, female bloggers should state if a blog is an impure state.

    Like

  22. Ankur says:

    Raj, please ask your travel agency to book a plane for you that flies to some godforsaken island in the middle of nowhere, inhabited by none but animals. No woman would bring bad luck to you because of her ‘impure state.’

    P.S. I seriously advise you to do this, Raj. If any ‘impure’ woman reading this catches hold of you, your hide’s safety is all that will matter to you, not its contamination or decontamination.

    Like

  23. Pingback: the M word « The normal self

  24. dipali says:

    The range of beliefs on this is pretty amazing, isn’t it, Neha?
    I think my family was most pragmatic and it never was an issue- one continued to live as normal:)

    Like

  25. raj says:

    hi neha – raj again. first of all i want to say that all of you are blindly following the western practice. their women don’t know how to control themselves – and that is why babies are born without mothers being married. that is why they are smoking, drinking and having sex without respect for anyone. following purity rules allows women to exercise self discipline. and to develop a pure mind. god has given woman periods so that she knows that she cannot do everything a man can…….. otherwise women forgets that she has to take care of babies. see, these rules remind even unmarried womens what their duties are…. that they must always sacrifice.

    i am not scared of you women.. you can come and run after me.. but let’s see if you can run when you are having periods. i am betting you cannot. if you are a good hindu follower then you follow these rules, otherwise you can become a west person or convert even. why make hinduism impure with ur actions??

    my wife agrees with me. not because she thinks i am mad. but because she knows that i am correct. our shastras say that wives must always obey husbands. but you are an impure so called hindu who is not really hindu, so you will never these understand these things.

    Like

  26. WA says:

    Amma thaaye okka chinna request – please please please don’t do any new posts yet, this is far too much fun. I haven’t laughed so much in weeks. ROTFL I really am ever so grateful to you.

    Like

  27. Indoczar says:

    Neha,
    Why control women only for those 3-4 days a month? Surely there must be an easier way to achieve control 24X365, if that was the intent.

    I am not sure if the ad man believed in the theory wholeheartedly. He had a reputation to care for and devised new ways fo live up to it. And as for the women supporting him:
    a) the women may not have had the guts as you rightly put it
    b) it was cool to be associated with ad man’s arbitrary management philosophy
    Surely, the ad man’s philosophy did not stem from a need to isolate and control

    Raj, you are an embarrassment!

    Like

  28. Silky says:

    Indoczar,

    There are easier ways (and more difficult and long-winding ones as well) to control women. And men do those all the time. This is just another way. And don’t you think that if an ad man (or any one else for that matter) has to devise such philosophies just to live up to his reputation, there has to be something wrong with him..which most probably would point to a supression of women. I’m sure if you think about this, it will make sense.

    Raj,
    Indoczar definitely got it right – you are an embarrasment. Not just to men, but to Indians worlwide – Oh Lord! will I ever again be able to say that India is progressing?

    Neha,
    I do love your posts. Cheers!

    Like

  29. maheesha says:

    Raj, You know what, i pity ur wife, what a moron to live with, that apart its sheer waste to reply for ur comments.

    Like

  30. dipali says:

    @Raj: Did you ever run and jump over hurdles? I used to, in school, periods or no periods.
    Are you trying to be funny? (Just a thought- surely you can’t be serious).

    Like

  31. MadrasChick says:

    Nice post Neha.

    I went to check out the other links in your post (blogs that I never even knew existed and read all the comments too) and ended up being angry, humored, disappointed (esp at MadMomma for her contradictory self about her puja prasad comment..anyway that’s still what I opine) and losing more than 3 hours of my life reading this after work 🙂

    I just wanted to come back and say, you knew exactly what and “how much” to say, on this topic. Pretty much what I would’ve wanted to say on this.

    @Dipali – lol at the hurdles. Brings back memories of my middle school.

    @All – I just think Raj is looking for his 15 minutes of fame. He’s just being funny. I can’t imagine any one being serious posting what he is. Don’t get fooled by his travel agent cover. In Tamil, whatever he’s doing right now is called “POttu VAAngradhu”

    Like

  32. WA says:

    Raj please come back with more comments, you really are the best, this is the greatest entertainment I’ve had in weeks. Looking fwd to reading more from you. Gotta run for now, lol

    Like

  33. Ankur says:

    Raj..
    I dont know if women can run when they have periods, but I sure can suggest a way for you to find out. Why dont you induce piles, and when you are bleeding from from your rectal cavity just put a sanitary napkin down there. Then run.

    Like

  34. Pingback: . « Hope and the absurd

  35. Pingback: ROFL « Twisted tales on life

  36. raj says:

    why are all you people so arrogant? what makes you think you are smarter than years of vedic knowledge and our forefathers. having a period is natural, but it is naturally impure. why are you all laughing at me? tomorrow, when an impure women effects your luck and things become really bad for you, then i will laugh at you all.

    periods is impure. that is why we like pregnant women -they don’t get periods. or we also worship very young girls or v. old women – because they also don’t get periods, and are pure. the sight of blood makes women very violent and they are not controlled by anything during that time. you are all impure fools. go to west and make life there. why stay in india and talk nonindian nonsense.

    Like

  37. raj says:

    ALSO – ankur, i think you are controlled by all womenin your life. that is why you say these things. a real man would stick to wisdom and not try to impress.

    Like

  38. Raj, I completely agree with you
    Let’s all stop talking nonindian nonsense and start just spouting nonsense then.
    And are you for real? I mean who actually believes that “the sight of blood makes women very violent and they are not controlled by anything during that time”
    If this is because your wife has been suffering from PMS, I suggest you understand that fact first.

    Like

  39. Ankur: I think raj is providing immense doses of entertainment here. It’s just incredible. Am baffled!

    WA: You just giggled nonstop on the phone for five minutes. I think raj has brought immense joy into your life.

    Indoczar: The ad-man bit I have no idea about. But I think the association between isolation and periods is quite clear. You cannot leave the house, you cannot interact with others. How on earth are you ever going to get any work done. The higher up you go on the caste/class ladder, the more binding the restrictions often are. I am not denying that things have changed, but I do believe that religion is fundamentally a patriarchal institution, and it seeks to control women in as many ways as possible. (By religion – I also extend it to “culture”)

    Silky: I think men get terribly defensive (women too actually) whenever someone talks of patriarchy. Perhaps the term puts them off. And perhaps one needs to be in that situation where a million rules are imposed to actually understand the gravity of control. Sigh.

    maheesha: Maybe his wife is just this really smart woman who gets him to (for a change?) do all the housework. At least we hope she gets some benefit out of the whole deal!!

    dipali: Isn’t it the best when people are unintentionally funny? 🙂

    MadrasChick: Thanks so much.. but to be fair, I entered pretty late and by then a lot of the argument had cleared up. Some of the comments really had me worked up. But then again, I think it becomes futile to become angry. Especially when it comes to faceless people who insist on holding onto some absurd idea of what it is to be a woman. As for raj – I demand that he start his own blog!

    raj: I think you need to start blogging. Perhaps share your wisdom with us!?! I find it hard to believe anyone would willingly marry you – was there an element of coercion involved?

    Like

  40. Pingback: ?????? - Gilli » Blog Archive » On Logic, Faith and Women’s Bodies - Neha

  41. Lekhni says:

    Do you give awards to commenters? I think Raj wins the “Funniest Commenter on this post” award hands down.

    Raj says ‘a real man would stick to wisdom and not try to impress.” So perhaps he is not trying to impress, but I am certainly impressed with his logic and his arguments 😉

    Then there is this gem: “god has given woman periods so that she knows that she cannot do everything a man can……”

    Umm..shouldn’t it be the reverse – aren’t periods a reminder that only women can have babies, but men can’t ? Oh well..

    Somebody please collate all of Raj’s wisdom into a single post! It’s just hilarious!!

    Like

  42. mini says:

    Delurking just to reply to raj

    Raj – I dont know much but i do know this that to make babies you need a man too so how is just that women dont know how to control themselves.. and the last time I saw there were plenty of men there drinking, smoking, having sex and doing lots more or i forget the rules are different for men and women is it.. in the Shastras you say.. you know who you are, you are a weak person and the only way you can feel good about yourself is by making women feel inferior. And dont you dare hide behind the Hindu Shastras as you call them as i have read plenty of hindu scriptures and no where have i read anything even resembling what you have to say.. its all misinterpreted by people like you down through the generations that morons like you take it seriously!!!

    Like

  43. mumbaigirl says:

    So all those women nurses who see blood every day are violent.

    Like

  44. WA says:

    Oh whilst we are at it what about all the wonderful phrases which are used, I think someone has already mentioned ‘maturity’ grrr that’s one stupid word for it. Other ones which are equally stupid ‘thooram’ ‘thooramaaitta’ ‘veettukku varapadaadhu’ ‘veliye’ I give up. Oh also ‘kulichittu dhaan irukkiya?’ or ‘mulugaama irukka’ for a pregnant woman.

    Feel sick. I ve obviously become too much of a west person

    Like

  45. mini says:

    Oh and i forgot to say Neha you write very well!!

    Like

  46. megha says:

    Shorter Indoczar and Raj:

    “While I understand that I am incapable of forming a coherent argument or stringing a few sensible lines together to save my life, this will not stop me from ploughing forward with my asshattery. I will resort to calling you a) paranoid b) bra-burner c) reference obscure 2000-5000 year old non existent mythological occurrences d) generally flail my arms and act like a whiny petulant baby.”

    You’re welcome.

    Like

  47. hawkeye says:

    i smell a rat. i think someone is playing this ‘raj’ character just to nakkal us :-). I wouldn’t too much money on raj and raj’s magaathaana opinions to be real.

    raj – i think you over did it.

    Like

  48. Twisted DNA says:

    Wow, quite a war going on here! Neha, thanks for introducing us to Raj. Raj, thanks for being the punch-bag, while I doubt you are just doing it for the giggles.

    Excellent article Neha.

    I don’t think we can speculate why the tradition started. It could have started just because menstruation was an unexplained phenomenon and people were probably just didn’t know how to handle it. Nor do I think “muttu”, as is called in Telugu, was invented to control them. I do concur with you that it is a part of a grand pattern of using tradition to oppress women and “keep them in their place.” The “tradition” is such a dangerous thing. For centuries women are so brainwashed and threatened with tradition, which was chiefly invented by men for their convenience, that they themselves gladly follow any demeaning tradition. I can not but draw parallels to the Texas Polygamist Sect case where women wilfully agreed to be married to older, polygamist husbands.

    And you put your other point quite well too, trying to explain faith with logic is outrageously funny (think Intelligent design). When I was young I got into trouble for pointing out to a gentleman, who argued that applying turmeric to thresholds was laden with age old wisdom, that their painting their thresholds with yellow oil-paint was plain stupid.

    Again, thoroughly enjoyed reading your article. I can rave more about it but I should probably stop before the comment becomes longer than the post itself.

    Like

  49. raj says:

    how dare you all say i am only joking. this makes me very ANGRYYYY. your arrogance means you never listen to anyone, and think of people like me, as jokers? i am very much real. i am very much serious. WOMEN AND MEN ARE NOT EQUAL. men cannot have children. women have children and because of that, they must sacrifice a lot. it is a gift from god, and they have to show their appreciation for god by separating herself … like a sanyasi. THIS IS NOT FUNNY AT ALL. IT IS A serious issue. you are all fools.

    Like

  50. Ankur says:

    THIS IS ALL THAT RAJ HAS TO SAY. I AM PUTTING THIS TOGETHER FOR YOU ALL TO HAVE ONE ROLLICKING TIME!!

    raj, on May 20th, 2008 at 11:06 am Said:
    woman are impure when they have periods. i own a travel agency, and we never allow the woman employees to take care of the ticketing needs. see so many people are going for teerth yaatra, or for imp journeys. if a woman with periods does their ticket, it could be very unlucky for them. even my wife agrees. i have seen myself pickles going bad when impure woman has touched. women are not bad, but they need to be careful to not give others bad luck. some precautions must be taken. you are wrong.

    raj, on May 21st, 2008 at 5:19 pm Said:
    hi neha – raj again. first of all i want to say that all of you are blindly following the western practice. their women don’t know how to control themselves – and that is why babies are born without mothers being married. that is why they are smoking, drinking and having sex without respect for anyone. following purity rules allows women to exercise self discipline. and to develop a pure mind. god has given woman periods so that she knows that she cannot do everything a man can…….. otherwise women forgets that she has to take care of babies. see, these rules remind even unmarried womens what their duties are…. that they must always sacrifice.

    i am not scared of you women.. you can come and run after me.. but let’s see if you can run when you are having periods. i am betting you cannot. if you are a good hindu follower then you follow these rules, otherwise you can become a west person or convert even. why make hinduism impure with ur actions??

    my wife agrees with me. not because she thinks i am mad. but because she knows that i am correct. our shastras say that wives must always obey husbands. but you are an impure so called hindu who is not really hindu, so you will never these understand these things.

    raj, on May 22nd, 2008 at 11:49 am Said:
    why are all you people so arrogant? what makes you think you are smarter than years of vedic knowledge and our forefathers. having a period is natural, but it is naturally impure. why are you all laughing at me? tomorrow, when an impure women effects your luck and things become really bad for you, then i will laugh at you all.

    raj, on May 22nd, 2008 at 11:57 am Said:
    ALSO – ankur, i think you are controlled by all womenin your life. that is why you say these things. a real man would stick to wisdom and not try to impress.

    raj, on May 23rd, 2008 at 6:28 am Said:
    how dare you all say i am only joking. this makes me very ANGRYYYY. your arrogance means you never listen to anyone, and think of people like me, as jokers? i am very much real. i am very much serious. WOMEN AND MEN ARE NOT EQUAL. men cannot have children. women have children and because of that, they must sacrifice a lot. it is a gift from god, and they have to show their appreciation for god by separating herself … like a sanyasi. THIS IS NOT FUNNY AT ALL. IT IS A serious issue. you are all fools.

    periods is impure. that is why we like pregnant women -they don’t get periods. or we also worship very young girls or v. old women – because they also don’t get periods, and are pure. the sight of blood makes women very violent and they are not controlled by anything during that time. you are all impure fools. go to west and make life there. why stay in india and talk nonindian nonsense.

    Like

Comments are closed.